According to author Robert Hoffman, who says he is in possession of notes and diaries that Kate used to write Multiple Blessings and Eight Little Faces, Kate wrote entry after entry about disiplining the kids.
The entries include:
- Kate used a wooden spoon she called "The Spanker" to discipline the kids for transgressions as minor as climbing out of their cribs or potty training issues.
 |
| A wooden spoon was indeed spotted more than once in the pocket of their car door. |
- Kate, in her own words "lost it" when Collin ate some M&Ms without permission.
- Kate “felt like I may hurt his children.”
- Kate preferred the kids out of sight when she was upset where they would be "safe"
- When Collin threw a tantrum, Kate says she “sent him to his crib and whipped him into it very hard...I never felt that I may really seriously injure a child, but today was that day.”
"You could hear Kate forcefully whacking the child and the child screaming at the top of his lungs," the ex-employee reported.
Kate has never denied the allegations in the interview.
1797 sediments (sic) from readers:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 1797 Newer› Newest»Marie but so what if we believe it's abuse which I do. We are not the law and we are not CPS. If we were I'd have the woman locked up.
My heart is pierced by some of the stories that have been shared here today. I am sorry I don't know all your names.
I think I came to the realization that many of us are here because we are survivors from less than ideal (or downright criminal) childhoods.
We sniffed the foul scent in the air around Kate. Maybe we couldn't put into precise words what we were thinking. Snippets that were hints to the darker underside of her personality, alarmed us.
Wounds we thought had healed in adulthood were throbbing while we watched.
I have felt over-whelming compassion for the Gosselin 8 on this blog. Compassion that comes from painful memories and compassion that comes from women who are nurturing and loving mothers.
I am awed by who we are. I am proud of us.
Looks like to different woman.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zCuQ1Yr92V0/UGOSlAdQSoI/AAAAAAAAADc/V8J6fRxur3o/w748-h435-p-k/beforeafter.jpg
"I personally feel Jon has to take some responsibility for what happened. This abuse happened while he was living there also."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How do you know that he didn't? The administrator here is right (184) and said it perfectly. It is nothing but speculation that neither Jon, nor witnesses did nothing. It's getting a bit ridiculous here to try to explain this over and over again, and people just not getting it. It's so easy to blame Jon and others who may have seen this happening, but we don't know what went on behind the scenes in regards to protecting the kids.
Ava @ #198 - AMEN!!! Thank you, very well put.
bm
Raggedy Ann said... 5
"I personally feel Jon has to take some responsibility for what happened. This abuse happened while he was living there also."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How do you know that he didn't? The administrator here is right (184) and said it perfectly. It is nothing but speculation that neither Jon, nor witnesses did nothing. It's getting a bit ridiculous here to try to explain this over and over again, and people just not getting it. It's so easy to blame Jon and others who may have seen this happening, but we don't know what went on behind the scenes in regards to protecting the kids.
***********
There are literally thousands of posts on this blog that are pure speculation about Kate. Suddenly when there is speculation about Jon folks are up in arms. Hypocrisy at its finest.
PA law focuses on the injuries. Not the objects.
If you beat them hard enough to seriously hurt them it doesn't matter if you used a feather or a brick to do it. It's a matter or reading the plain language of it and also of understanding how much leeway parents have in all states. If anyone has a different experience in PA please share.
Oh I understand, Marie, I just don't agree with you:
Let's turn this around and you will understand.
What if Jon was the one abusing the children?
Would it be okay if Kate did nothing? And then left the kids with Jon? Would you expect Kate to just stay there with the kids?
*****
YOU DO NOT KNOW what Jon did or didn't do. He was given divorce papers and invited to leave the house. He couldn't stick around and "do something" at the house. Kate would not allow him on the property after the divorce.
It could be the trouble in their marriage had to do with how the children were treated. Jon could have begged Kate to take parenting classes
or go for family therapy. We don't know. He might have called Child services to the house himself. Apparently whatever he did or did not do served no purpose. Nothing changed. NO LAWS WERE BROKEN. Nobody could do anything except physically remove the children from Kate, which would be abduction. She had custody. What in the name of Fred Rogers did anybody EXPECT Jon to do? He was stuck.
It is huge conjecture to just say Jon did nothing. WE DO NOT KNOW what Jon did. It might be more than all of us together can imagine.
I would love to see Nancy Grace get a hold of Kate and question her.
+++++++
Nah...all we would hear would be about her amazing and awesome twins and how they messed their diapers when they were babies and she was totally frustrated because of it.
miloandjack
@Kateplusmy8 People calm down..a trashy tabloid reporter&obsessed stalker does not the truth make!
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
And there you have it, right from Kate's Official Twitter Representative. Everyone back to your regularly scheduled life. There is no truth to the allegations.
Formerly Duped said...
And if she behaved that way to Collin, what about Joel? We know who her least favorite icky boy was- he certainly was emotionally abused.
************************
I completely agree and was thinking the same thing. Collin, being 'stubborn', may have fought back as much as toddler can which would enrage her even more. Even a defiant look, or running away rather than standing still while being hit, could certainly enrage an abuser.
Lord, Dwindle, I could hear those poor babies screaming and sobbing when I read your post. That is chilling! Unfortunately, I'm afraid it's all too accurate.
Anonymous Marie -- Why don't you join us in blue and post as Marie Too? Ugh, sorry, I didn't mean to rhyme. Or you could be I'm Marie II or some other variation using your name that differentiates from Original Marie. You have some good insights and I'm afraid some of them are being lost in the shuffle because they're headed "anonymous". Some of us don't stick around long enough to get to the "Marie" at the bottom.
Unfortunately, I'm not sure these kids will band together. KK's been doing a very good job of alienating them from the getgo. Her insistence on everything being in birth order. Her pitting the girls against the boys, Hannah against Leah and Alexis, Mady against Cara. Remember how she used to emphasis that Cara was born a few minutes before Mady, even tho she knew it upset Mady? That was just pure meanness. They're twins, for heaven sake. Why does it matter which one popped out first?
Are these worth looking at again? SG mentioned them earlier today.
Something is in there about a 24/7 nanny. Would that mean Jon felt he could leave the kids safely because there WAS a nanny there at all times?
Can anyone decipher?
Jon's alleged notes
Also, I notice the JKI8 is mentioned, as well as "Steve trustee witness" $900,000
Both Kate and Jon are speculated about but everyone always admits it's speculation and it always is based on something. What's being said here is that someone did nothing. Not, I am worried people didn't do anything or I suspect people did nothing. It's being treated as fact without any basis and in fact with a total disregard for how CPS really works.
There are literally thousands of posts on this blog that are pure speculation about Kate.
***
***
Oh, good grief. How is it speculation when it's right there in her own words, put out by a man who was vetted by Kate's own attorneys?
On a somewhat lighter note, I just now noticed the blue bracelets posted at the top of this entry.
Genius, Admin. A picture worth 1,000 words, if not more.
Marie, I have and will never "spank" my children. I don't believe in it. Other people do. However, AGAIN, spanking is not against the law. No matter how many times Jon, or anyone else, would go before a judge complaining about Kate spanking the children, they would get nowhere. AGAIN, spanking is not considered abuse per the law in Pennsylania. It's just amazing that you continue to bash Jon over something he could not control.
Paula you said it perfectly.
Complaining to authorities about what is described would get you no where. You might as well complain that Kate dresses the boys in blue and the girls in pink. You may not like it, but it's legal.
Okay, let me try this another way.
First let me say that I don't like Kate, never have, and I believe she is a child abuser and a child exploiter. Even if PA law says she isn't.
Secondly, Jon was living with Kate while the children were being abused and exploited. We know that Jon was part of the exploitation of the kids. I can't prove or disprove that he tried to stop the abuse of the kids by Kate. I can say that his actions after he left the house do not indicate that he was concerned about the safety of the children. He was out partying, he was travdeling all over the world, he was smoking pot, he was going from woman to woman. He sure didn't seem concerned about the safety of his kids. This is my speculation based on his behavior at the time. With this behavior, would a judge even allow Jon to have custody of his kids? At that time, no, I don't think so. So how could he have been fighting to get custody of the kids while behaving the way he was? All the while knowing that Kate was an abuser.
Jon did finally come to his senses and tried to stop the exploitation of the kids but that does not absolve his responsibility of what was done to the children.
Last I'm going to say on the subject.
Marie
What nanny notes?
What is SG?
Wow, I spend what is normally my 15 Min blog time on the NFL and check in to see actual G news. Or actually, actual OLD G news. Is anyone remotely surprised that the kids have been physically abused? Or that people have ignored and covered it up? Or that CPS is both criminally underfunded and undermaned not to mention underbacked (new word?) by the law?
I think I'll go back to the grown men, often millionaires, being abused. It's way easier to take and will be solved and stopped way before the G situation will.
Moi,
In reference to
SG said... 61 previous page.
Paula said... 18
Marie, I have and will never "spank" my children. I don't believe in it. Other people do. However, AGAIN, spanking is not against the law. No matter how many times Jon, or anyone else, would go before a judge complaining about Kate spanking the children, they would get nowhere. AGAIN, spanking is not considered abuse per the law in Pennsylania. It's just amazing that you continue to bash Jon over something he could not control.
************************************
Last I knew a father has a say in the way his children are treated. Does your husband approve of spanking? If your husband spanked your kids, what would you do?
If you don't consider this abuse by Kate, why are we even debating it?
It' just spanking, right? No abuse. I guess I don't get why we even have the thread then.
Marie
Last I'm going to say on the subject.
Marie
___________________________________
Thank God for small favors.
Sorry, can't put a halo on Jon. I just can't. If my ex were "abusing" my kids I would be shouting it from the rooftops. All those interviews he did with tabloids, all those months he was on Twitter, all those times he was in front of a camera and he couldn't say anything? The judge would be more prone to look into this further if there was a public outcry. That's why I don't believe these "abuse" alligations are any more than just your run of the mill spankings. If it were more than that Jon could have spoken up to the media and got some attention brought upon it. He didn't. His most recent public statement about his ex wife was that she is a good mother. I'm just not believeing Kate physically abused her kids. I don't believe she's the mother of the year like TLC touted her to be, but I don't believe she "beat" her kids, either.
Once Jon decided he didn't want to film anymore he was DONE. Kate did everything she could to make sure he would have or get nothing.She had TLC backing her.
Once the divorce hit the news Jon was DONE.He was the deadbeat piece-of-shit loser dad,who walked out on 8 kids.He was the joke and Kate was the bestest mommy in the world plugging along doing it all her kids.That man never knew what was coming and never stood a chance.
Like the kids, he was also abused.It's funny how Jon's abuse is/was laughed at. He was the MAN afterall...Kates only a woman.How can a woman abuse a man.
Jon was able to break free.He went wild for a while.Many abused people go wild after gaining their new found freedom.Wait until some of the G8 get that freedom.I'm sure not all of their choices will be good ones.
I dont think there was anything Jon could do to help his kids.No matter what he tried to say or do he was laughed at and ridiculed . He was the jealous ex-husband,pissed off because his wife was living the high life by exploiting the kids and he wasn't.
So.......Maybe Jon does play a roll in this book.Maybe this was the only way he could get help for the kids.It took some time,but judges love proof...evidence.It seems like this book is going to be full of both.
I hope the kids get a happy ending to this horror story that is their life.
And Kate,you bitch, YOU ARE THE BULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Light at the end of the tunnel
Realitytvkids.com (Administrator) said... 19
Paula you said it perfectly.
Complaining to authorities about what is described would get you no where. You might as well complain that Kate dresses the boys in blue and the girls in pink. You may not like it, but it's legal.
*****************************
Why do we have this blog post? You act like Kate was abusing the kids (which I think she was) and make quite a big deal about it, yet you think their faher, Jon, has no control over how his children are treated? He was a part of the household. He has a say and he has responsibilities. They were a married couple at the time.
How do you absolve Jon of all responsibility now yet accuse Kate of being abusive?
We don't know whether Jon tried to do anything or not but according to you nothing would have happened, so Jon has no responsibility?
Marie
I am not going to bash CPS (or DFACS as they are called here in Georgia) per se, they underfunded, overworked individiuals trying to do their best. But, everyday I read in the news about children "falling through the cracks" who could have been saved if DFACS has just followed through with complaints or if Judges had just done what DFACS requested and removed children from abusive homes. The Gosselin children are lucky in that they have a Father who loves them and, from what Berks has said, a good support system around them.
Tweet-le De Tweet-le DUMB said... 25
That was really unnecessary. You should have respect for other opinions even though you don't agree with it. I haven't attacked you in any way, shape or form and I wouldn't.
Marie
Check this video out. It's about the abuse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkVLMEK_HEU&feature=player_embedded
Marie, PLEASE continue to post.
Those of us who find serious flaws in Jon are not very popular here. The people who are defending Jon are just like the sheeple. They surmise, presume and assume. All to Jon's benefit.
These kids did not hit the lottery when it came to parents and I don't understand why it's so impossible for them to understand we can't believe in either parent.
SG = Scmecky Girl?
I feel like an idiot.
SG is Schmecky.
Duh!
Sorry to have wasted time on that, I thought it had something to do with the nanny.
It is seriously time to go to your legislature if you call that place home.
-------
admin, it is in the works, but as you know from the outdated child labor laws, PA works very slowly in these matters.
This isn't meant as a justification for any one's behavior or non-behavior. It's just an example of the way the law (doesn't)work. About 15 years ago there was a highly publicized case in the Washington, D.C. area involving a very well-known plastic surgeon named Elizabeth Morgan. Her ex was from a very prominent and wealthy family. She had a little girl with the ex who was, I think, around 7 at the time. Anyway, the little girl made statements that led Dr. Morgan to believe that she was being sexually molested by her father. She investigated further, had charges brought, requested that visitation be ceased, and the ex's other ex wife and slightly older daughter supported the little girl's allegations. The judge in the case ruled that the allegations were in equipose, meaning that there was a 50/50 chance they were true, then proceeded to continue unsupervised visitation with the father. Dr. Morgan spirited her parents and the little girl out of the country (turns out that, ironically, they went to Australia). She was sentenced to prison and served over a year for refusing to disclose the child's whereabouts. I leave you to develop your own opinions and draw your own conclusions.
Moi said... 32
Marie, PLEASE continue to post.
**************************************
Thanks for the support. I feel bad for the kids. I hope they will get the help they need and thrive in spite of the parents.
Marie
Moi/Marie, whoever you are...No one, I mean no one has said that Jon has no flaws. However, to continue to insist that he allowed Kate to abuse the children is a fantasy in your own mind. This is the great sheeply tactic - turn the conversation from Kate to Jon. Congrats on your attempts to turn the conversation all day. Sorry, it won't work.
Marie, the admin of this blog has explained up, down, and sideways and yet you can't see it. Many of the folks here are sooooo much more patient than I. I've stayed away today because I think there are some snakes in the woodpile and wonder if that's why hardly anyone is on Kate's Twitter defending her. Are they here?
Anyway, you're making me tired. Kudos to all who have the patience of Job.
I'm going back to watch the "haters" today. They're united. Maybe tomorrow I'll be more in the mood for the unreasonable Jon bashing.
annastasia said... 131
Lee #95-thanks for your kind words, no one ever told me anything like that before. I guess it really is a legacy, passed down to future generations. I guess I really did do something right.
===
You really did, annastasia. You did the most important thing of all very, very right!
C'mon, Kate...TWEET you BIOTCH. you know you want to!
Mr. Hoffman, thanks for being a voice for these kids, for not backing down to her attys.
Dmasy #3...beautifully said. I am proud of you, am proud for you!
:)
Cries In The Dark said... 16
There are literally thousands of posts on this blog that are pure speculation about Kate.
***
***
Oh, good grief. How is it speculation when it's right there in her own words, put out by a man who was vetted by Kate's own attorneys?
Huh? Do you understand the meaning of the word speculation? You can speculate about something and that speculation may or may not prove to be true. Speculation about abuse. Speculation about every type of plastic surgery known to man. Speculation about alcoholism. Speculation about affairs with both men and women. Etc., etc.
Those of us who find serious flaws in Jon are not very popular here. The people who are defending Jon are just like the sheeple. They surmise, presume and assume. All to Jon's benefit.
NO! Quite the contrary. The people who are posting about Jon are not speculating that he is to blame or not to be blamed, based on wild accusations that he did nothing to protect the kids. The presumption is being done by those who are quick to criticize him for doing nothing, when they don't know what he did to protect the kids.
What is so difficult to understand about that?
@Tweet-Le...I think you're on to something.
Realitytvkids.com (Administrator) said... 19
Paula you said it perfectly.
Complaining to authorities about what is described would get you no where. You might as well complain that Kate dresses the boys in blue and the girls in pink. You may not like it, but it's legal.
**************
It is not that black and white. If she beat the children with a wooden spoon and caused serious injury, that is not legal.
Kate's sheeple and Jon's sheeple. LOL Which one are you??
Paula/Tweedle . . . whatever name you want to call yourself, I have a right to my opinion as do you.
:) Carry on.
Marie
And an eerie silence falls over Kate's usually busy, busy, happy, happy twitter today.
Milo is busy but she'll get right on the case.
Fired Up 4 Kate @MiloandJack
@Kateplusmy8 One more meeting here & I'll chk back in. People calm down..a trashy tabloid reporter&obsessed stalker does not the truth make!
Kate cannot be given the benefit of the doubt, because RH had access to diaries, etc., and what is posted is in her own words. On the other hand, blame at this point cannot be put on Jon because nobody, other than his attorneys, the courts, and those involved, DO NOT KNOW what was done or not done to protect the kids from Kate's crazy tirades against these children. If he is responsible for simply looking the other way, then shame on him. But to condemn him for something that we don't know, nor have any proof, is calling him guilty until proven innocent.
@anonymous45 - go back and read what Admin posted about the laws in PA.
If you don't consider this abuse by Kate, why are we even debating it?
&&&
I don't know how else. Maybe read our posts more carefully.
Not a single person here has said they don't think this is abuse personally. In fact I've gone on practical tirades here about how strongly I feel about even just basic open handed spanking being abuse. What we're saying is, under the law, in every state, and especially in PA, it's not "abuse." We're talking about legal definitions.
Can you please pick a name and use it to comment, even if it's just Marie-2?
Marie and everyone else not staunchly up Jon's rear, I think you are about to be banned.
Paula, we already know that the LAWS in PA do not consider this abuse. So what?
Do you consider it abuse or not? If not, then why are we even discussing it?
Marie
Radar Online now has the picture up which shows the infamous spoon in the front door pocket of the BBB.
bm
@Kateplusmy8 One more meeting here & I'll chk back in. People calm down..a trashy tabloid reporter&obsessed stalker does not the truth make!
LOL!! Milo to the rescue because she know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm sure she was there when the trashy tabloid reporter was given the lie detector test and she knows that the whole thing was faked to make it look like he passed with flying colors!
I think Jon's time after the divorce is shameful and he made huge mistakes. Sheeple don't admit that their king or queen ever did anything shameful or made mistakes.
I think Marie's comment that she is basing her fears about what he did or didn't do on that time is completely fair. I think there are many people who will never forgive him for that time. I'm not one of them, but I get it.
I don't know why all the fussing about Jon/Kate, etc, etc..
put the focus back on the kids. They had a voice today. LOUD AND CLEAR.
I am sure CPS will get involved again, let the system work.
We don't know what Jon did or didn't do. I bet we find out in time.
Let the system work.
Quit attacking each other. Emotions are running high today, and rightly so. Everyone take a deep breath and play nice in the sandbox. Please?
Admin can certainly confirm that those of us who are upset with Jon are not the same person. IPs will most certainly sure we're a random lot.
My definition of a sheeple is one who blindly follows, attempts to protect and is intolerant of opinions that don't support THEIR side.
I don't hate either parent, because I don't know them. I hate what I believe happened to those children and fault both parents.
It's almost like Milo is trying to "guide" Kate to say this is a trashy tabloid reporter and lies.
Basically to be a sheeple you have to believe that someone just completely made up those diaries out of thin air and risked a gigantic libel suit. If that's the case where is Marty Singer? Also Radar would be liable for libel too for printing it if they were careless with vetting it.
Paula said... 50
@anonymous45 - go back and read what Admin posted about the laws in PA.
*************
I don't need to go back and read what the administrator posted. I am capable of reading the law myself and have done so. I am not one of the administrator's sheeple.
Thank you ChefSummer for posting the link to the YouTube video.
Admin, what is frustrating me is that every time someone says its abuse, Paula says, no, Pennsylvania Law says it isn't abuse. Yes, we know the LAW says it isn't abuse, but don't we all believe on here that it is abuse? I think so.
Marie
Sheeple logic: If I put my fingers in my ears and blindfold my eyes that means my idol, Kate will remain perfect in every way, right? (shaking my head)
Tweets from her self-proclaimed #1 fan:
Paige: i'm not talking about the abuse. i dont believe that at all!!!!! if thoes kids were abused you would be able to see it on their faces
Paige: she did not abuse her kids this is all bull shit
Paige: first of all even if the "proposed book" is all true, I don't care! people change, people grow up and people move on. #TeamKate
Yep Paige - for too long you sheeple been blinded by your idolization of Kate to see what has been right in front of your face all along. It's time to re-watch those videos again with eyes and mind wide open and finally see the truth! Even with proof in black and white; will any of the sheeple admit the truth?
Why do we have this blog post? You act like Kate was abusing the kids (which I think she was) and make quite a big deal about it, yet you think their faher, Jon, has no control over how his children are treated? He was a part of the household. He has a say and he has responsibilities. They were a married couple at the time.
How do you absolve Jon of all responsibility now yet accuse Kate of being abusive?
&&&
Marie I think you will get along better here if you get some reading comprehension. And if you pick a name.
I don't absolve Jon of responsibility. Where did I say that? His responsibility is to do all he can. The flaws in the system have been pointed out incessantly, how even when people DO do all they can, nothing happens. That's a side point. Where we disagree is you think he didn't do anything, and I think, we don't know what anyone did or didn't do. I don't know how else to explain this to you to get you to understand the difference between supporting someone complacent in child abuse, which I would never in my life ever do, and understanding how much that goes on we don't know about and how hard the system can be to navigate to results from those of us directly involved with it either personally or professionally, either one or twice or every day of our lives.
Blogger seems to have eaten my post because someone else was posting at the same time. Go figure, huh? LOL
So, my question was:
WHEN IS THE BOOK COMING OUT? When is there going to be an announcement about a publication date?
All this '3rd day of Kate' stuff is dribbles and drabbles of info. (EXCELLENT, shocking info, but still)
Hoffman, if you are going to publish, JUST DO IT. I'm getting tired of what seems to be taunts to kart. Geez man, just do it.
Marie #24 -
I think Khate is a monster. At this point, I don't know exactly what to think about Jon...douche, yes...victim, probably...guilty of physical/mental abuse, maybe (but kids reaction to him makes me think he is the lesser of the evils).
I am not disputing your view of Jon - we are all entitled to our opinions, and I respect that you have an opinion that perhaps is not the same as mine.
The flaw I see in your argument is that you are assuming 2 people married to each other would agree about something like disciplining children. And that both people would carry out the discipline in the same way.
That is not necessarily the case. Sure, some couples talk it all out, make a plan. Other couples do not, and things become a "heat of the moment" decision. Maybe other couples disagree, but don't know how to communicate that to each other. Some parents do present a "united front" on all matters, others do not.
Speculation about abuse. Speculation about every type of plastic surgery known to man. Speculation about alcoholism. Speculation about affairs with both men and women. Etc., etc.
&&&
Every single one of those speculations was based on a mountain of evidence, even photographs in many cases.
Your speculation is based on, Jon once went to France and I once saw Jon go into the bathroom with Mady and he "looked" like he hit her.
It's a fair point to say HUH?
If people suddenly started speculating that Kate is running for president I would say the same thing--based on what? When outlandish things are said here, people call them on it. This happens practically every day when things are said about Kate that are over the top.
Why even this morning people were saying oh my gosh Steve is Honey Boo Boo's bodyguard. People immediately said NO that's not true.
The flaw I see in your argument is that you are assuming 2 people married to each other would agree about something like disciplining children. And that both people would carry out the discipline in the same way.
&&&
My mom and dad had completely different discipline styles but they made it work.
One spanked, grounded and took away privileges, one would just sit me down and talk about it.
I know now as an adult that they both felt very strongly about their styles and neither one was going to change the other's mind. They are still happy and together.
Let's face it, these kids didn't exactly win the parent lottery. One parent is terminally immature, and the other is a self-obsessed abuser.
Whatever Jon did or didn't do doesn't change the now-obvious fact that Kate knew she was physically abusing those babies, and did nothing to stop herself from taking her frustrations out on them, even as they grew older, and long after the diary entries published today.
You don't carry around a wooden implement to beat your children with unless you know that you may need it during every day drives around town. You don't throw your children's belongings out in a fit of temper unless you have an anger managment problem.
Everyone can speculate all they want about what Jon has done, but Kate's behavior is well-documented on video, and now in her own words.
I think if Jon truly thought Kate was abusing the kids he would have documented it and got it out there. He hasn't said a word about it. That leads me to believe Robert is taking things out of context or got swindled by someone who hates Kate more than he does.
Milo, as Kate's pr person, is probably on the phone right now with Kate, and the two of them are hatching a plan on how to spin this, with Milo getting special permission from the Lights Out Man to stay awake for an extra hour to take care of Kate's personal business.
Tweet-le said, "Marie, the admin of this blog has explained up, down, and sideways and yet you can't see it. Many of the folks here are sooooo much more patient than I. I've stayed away today because I think there are some snakes in the woodpile and wonder if that's why hardly anyone is on Kate's Twitter defending her. Are they here?"
*************
Yes, they are here, and as per typical sheeple thinking, they just don't get it. Their tactical approach is to deflect, and now it's to bash all of those who may appear to be in Jon's camp. They cannot understand what admin (and others) have been saying over and over again. But, what can you expect -- they're sheeple who have wandered out of their pasture to spread their manure on here.
Tweet -- I'm losing patience, too. Stupidity among sheeple seems to be running rampant tonight. They need to get back on Twitter and defend their Queen Ewe.
Does anyone wonder if coupon cabin will keep a self-admitted child abuser as a spokesperson?
Her journal entries are what's going to bite her....
It is not that black and white. If she beat the children with a wooden spoon and caused serious injury, that is not legal.
&&&
But there's nothing to indicate she ever beat them that bad. Serious injury means SERIOUS. In CA we also use the LEGAL term "serious." Even a little bruising and soreness in our courts is not considered "serious", much less in PA.
I hope to God she never beat them that bad. Child abusers are usually very good at hurting their kids JUST up to the legal threshold then backing off.
I don't need to go back and read what the administrator posted. I am capable of reading the law myself and have done so. I am not one of the administrator's sheeple.
****
I have sheeple? Cool. You're not really a sheeple until you make a wrist band that says "Team Admin" and mail it to me. When I get it in the mail, I'll open it when I get to it ALL RIGHT? God.
In all seriousness, there are thousands of articles online that can explain PA child abuse laws better than I can. Perhaps those will convince you.
Radaronline is running the story for a second time today. It is their lead story with the words PHOTO SHOCKER! with a photo of a big spoon in her car door. It seems this photo really changed radars mind and reran the story again with a new photo and big header.
BHappyLoveLaugh
@SiobhanR111 @SandieBellz @stxmom @BarbGilmer @deannatweeting Common sense lost. It's insane to think anyone would write it down they abuse.
**********************************
Now they're getting it!!!!! It IS indeed insane to document how you abuse your kids! A person who would do that must be mentally unstable.
Your Honor, I rest my case.
How do you absolve Jon of all responsibility now yet accuse Kate of being abusive?
***************
Oh, good gawd. Nobody is doing that! Why, in heaven's names, can't this person READ and UNDERSTAND!
Patience is wearing thin...
When I get it in the mail, I'll open it when I get to it ALL RIGHT? God.
*************
Color preference? We want to make sure to get it right...
Admin, what is frustrating me is that every time someone says its abuse, Paula says, no, Pennsylvania Law says it isn't abuse. Yes, we know the LAW says it isn't abuse, but don't we all believe on here that it is abuse? I think so.
Marie
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Actually, I understand that. I think maybe we need to be better at clarifying whether we are talking about the legal definition of abuse, or our own personal definitions of abuse. Because in PA there's a huge difference.
By the way just a little background on abuse laws, the reason they are so lenient is because we are a nation founded on autonomy and the right to do what you want, including the right to parent as you see fit. In fact that's the one thing the sheeple are right about, in this country you do generally have a right to parent as you see fit. Not making a comment either way whether this is right, but it is the state of our law and always has been.
The law has for centuries balanced a parent's right to parent their child with the child's rights, and only very very recently have children's rights become a little bit more important than they used to be, mostly do to child advocacy groups, a better understanding of children, changing attitudes where people don't see children as chattel anymore, etc. Still, in all states, it's still nearly impossible to lose your child. You better be shooting up six days a week and drunk driving on Sundays if you want Johnny taken away from you.
Admin 56 (page 2 of comments)
ITA. And I will even go so far as to say this: What Kate did was abusive and I think wanting the kids away from her if she was mad shows she knew it was abusive.
I don't like Kate. I think she is a narcissistic, neglectful and abusive parent who loves her kids when it's convenient for her. However, if Kate were to get help, to truly try and change I would praise her for doing so, just as I have praised Jon.
Twittering, I think the point you are missing is that Kate is being called out on abusing the kids but Jon isn't being called for knowing about it. The language used in bashing Kate is no where near the language used when describing Jon's involvement. If Kate is guilty of abusing the kids then Jon is surely guilty of standing by and not stopping it. Yes, the courts don't call spanking your kids abuse - and neither do I - but if he truly felt the kids were in danger and he didn't shout his fears from the rooftops then he holds some accountability here.
I'm going to be anon on this one so as not to receive the treatment that Marie, Moi and others have received.
Realitytvkids.com (Administrator) said... 67
Speculation about abuse. Speculation about every type of plastic surgery known to man. Speculation about alcoholism. Speculation about affairs with both men and women. Etc., etc.
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Every single one of those speculations was based on a mountain of evidence, even photographs in many cases.
You can't have typed that seriously. Where is the "mountain of evidence" that she is an alcoholic? Where is the mountain of evidence that she was sleeping with her friend Jamie? For that matter, where is the mountain of evidence that she was screwing her bodyguard? I'll give you the boob job, and "mountain" may be the appropriate term to apply there, but there was no "mountain of evidence" for anything else that I cited and you know it.
Twittering, I think the point you are missing is that Kate is being called out on abusing the kids but Jon isn't being called for knowing about it. The language used in bashing Kate is no where near the language used when describing Jon's involvement. If Kate is guilty of abusing the kids then Jon is surely guilty of standing by and not stopping it. Yes, the courts don't call spanking your kids abuse - and neither do I - but if he truly felt the kids were in danger and he didn't shout his fears from the rooftops then he holds some accountability here.
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Would it change your mind if you knew you were dealing with an unstable person who would hurt the children even more if you shouted it from the rooftops?
Kate is being called out because we have her diaries about it. When we get Jon's diaries about it, I'm sure he'll be called out too.
I don't follow the logic that if Kate is guilty of abuse, Jon is also guilty. Or anyone really, until we know what was done. It's a logical fallacy. Every day courts place children in the safe and able hands of a parent or even someone else in the home who is NOT the abuser. Every day court's recognize that the other parent is not always guilty too and that children can safely be with them even if they can't be with the other.
Well,goodness...I think I am going to baaa out now. I'm going to grab my iced tea and watch my Braves take on the Marlins and hope the Phillies can rally against the Nats.
Admin...you've got more patience than I could ever have with people who are obvious pros at deflection.....
You can't have typed that seriously. Where is the "mountain of evidence" that she is an alcoholic?
She made an entire episode about it. A nanny gave an interview about it too.
Where is the mountain of evidence that she was sleeping with her friend Jamie?
Photos show them in positions I've never seen just friends be in. Kate even admits they sleep in the same bed and we saw it on film.
For that matter, where is the mountain of evidence that she was screwing her bodyguard?
Jon wanted Steve to leave and was uncomfortable about it. If she weren't screwing him why not just hire a new one, what's the big deal?
Okay maybe not mountain, but definitely a big hill!
Twittering, I think the point you are missing is that Kate is being called out on abusing the kids but Jon isn't being called for knowing about it
***************
I haven't missed anything. Kate is called out on abusing the kids because it's there in her own words, in pictures and in episodes. Jon isn't being called out for knowing about it because nobody knows exactly what he has done behind the scenes. If it's proven he knew about it and did nothing, then he shoulders the responsibility.
There is no rocket science involved in understanding this. Sheeple, though, apparently have a major problem with reading comprehension.
Admin, is there any way to swiffer the anonymous posts...it not only is in violation of the first rule but it becomes very hard to know which anonymous is commenting and responding?
Twittering And Twattering said... 71
Milo, as Kate's pr person, is probably on the phone right now with Kate, and the two of them are hatching a plan on how to spin this, with Milo getting special permission from the Lights Out Man to stay awake for an extra hour to take care of Kate's personal business.
===================================
Lolz!
As of this morning, Milo was STILL begging Kate for a picture of Shoka. She.Is.Not.Buying. that he's still there eating roadkill at the konpound.
MiloandJack @Kateplusmy8 A cool pic Kate would be 4U 2introduce Fabio ...shot w/him in his #Vase w/Shoka lookin in! #SpoiledPets :) about 10 hours ago
Realitytvkids.com (Administrator) said... 74
I don't need to go back and read what the administrator posted. I am capable of reading the law myself and have done so. I am not one of the administrator's sheeple.
****
I have sheeple? Cool. You're not really a sheeple until you make a wrist band that says "Team Admin" and mail it to me. When I get it in the mail, I'll open it when I get to it ALL RIGHT? God.
In all seriousness, there are thousands of articles online that can explain PA child abuse laws better than I can. Perhaps those will convince you.
********
I don't need any convincing. I understand the law. You are making an assumption that whatever physical abuse took place did not meet the legal definition of abuse in PA. I am not making that assumption. I have no idea whether it did or didn't and neither do you.
There was something like 57 kids who died in the system last year in Los Angeles if I remember my L.A. Times article correctly. Many still with their parents. People are outraged.
CPS can be involved backwards and forwards and still nothing is done sometimes.
Admin, if Jon thought the kids would be treated worse if he tried to help then by all means HE SHOULD HAVE DONE MORE. Its a proven fact that when the public is outraged about something then the courts work faster. If Jon thought Kate was abusing his kids all he has to do is call up all the tabloids and give a story to them, get it out there. The courts would have no choice but to act on it. He did interviews with the large networks and never said a word. That's why I don't believe it.
I stopped watching the show very early on - the pumpkin carving fiasco did me in. Today, I felt compelled to search youtube and came across an episode called "discipline". Sickening - all of it. No child should ever have such disturbing moments put out there for the world to see. That was real upset and pain they were experiencing. They even went so far as to talk about each child re: the discipline they needed... Good grief - how was any of this allowed to be aired? How could anyone allow a camera to zoom in on their child's pain like that?
I don't need any convincing. I understand the law. You are making an assumption that whatever physical abuse took place did not meet the legal definition of abuse in PA. I am not making that assumption. I have no idea whether it did or didn't and neither do you.
&&&
That's actually a fair point. Maybe she did hurt them bad enough to qualify as abuse under the law.
I guess I don't WANT to believe it was that bad. But you've shaken me and made me realize it could have been.
Shes baaaack....and it was a happy free day...a little obvious and over the top comment .....telling all her tribe to quickly block.....
Anonymous, true, but what about the public humiliation of dragging the kids through a tabloid war about abuse?
I am ALL FOR reporting abuse but I don't think even I would choose the tabloid route to handle it, even if I went to CPS a hundred times and they said no a hundred times.
Maybe I'm wrong for that but I don't see myself ever doing such a thing.
Kate slapped Jon a few times or a love tap as she called it.
While they were in the interview chair and during another epi.
This is going to get me blasted, but there are some Jon sheeple here. Why do people automatically assume that because someone says something bad about Jon it means they're a Kate sheeple? I'm astonished at how many posters here have such a black and white view of Kate = BAD, Jon = GOOD, and that's that.
I get that Kate is the one who filed for divorce etc, but the fact is, the marriage had been over for a while, and Jon had opportunity to file first and if he'd filed first he could have obtained at least temporary full custody of the kids and the house, and I am certain there must be recorded footage of Kate's abuse that Jon could have used against her...at the very least we know there is written evidence that Jon had access to. Jon trying to get CPS involved after he was already out of the house is too little, too late...if that's even what he did.
I wholeheartedly believe he could have done SOMETHING and chose to do nothing, because he was getting the benefits of continuing the sham marriage.
This is so reasonable that it requires repeating:
aggiemom09121416 said... 57
I don't know why all the fussing about Jon/Kate, etc, etc..
put the focus back on the kids. They had a voice today. LOUD AND CLEAR.
I am sure CPS will get involved again, let the system work.
We don't know what Jon did or didn't do. I bet we find out in time.
Let the system work.
Quit attacking each other. Emotions are running high today, and rightly so. Everyone take a deep breath and play nice in the sandbox. Please?
Thank you, Aggiemom. Thank you.
Wonder if Robert did any investigation into the possibility that Kate orchestrated HOM's by lying about having PCOS. I've long thought that she had those tups on purpose with the goal of cashing in on them. Such an evil bitch
Realitytvkids.com (Administrator) said... 85
You can't have typed that seriously. Where is the "mountain of evidence" that she is an alcoholic?
She made an entire episode about it. A nanny gave an interview about it too.
**************
One night of drinking in NYC equates to alcoholism? Good luck with that one, counselor.
**************
Photos show them in positions I've never seen just friends be in. Kate even admits they sleep in the same bed and we saw it on film
*************
Maybe you need to expand your horizons. I've slept in the same bed with a female friend before without having sex. I don't remember the photos but some people are more physical than others. Your "big hill" might be the size of an ant hill, but not much more.
Can someone tell me what Kate tweeted? for some reason it isn't showing at the top of the blog for me.
Marie
Twittering And Twattering said... 86
Twittering, I think the point you are missing is that Kate is being called out on abusing the kids but Jon isn't being called for knowing about it
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I haven't missed anything. Kate is called out on abusing the kids because it's there in her own words, in pictures and in episodes. Jon isn't being called out for knowing about it because nobody knows exactly what he has done behind the scenes. If it's proven he knew about it and did nothing, then he shoulders the responsibility.
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Best post of the day. Thank you for your reason and logic.
Shes thanking everyone for support......but ill tell you what...there was not a lot of support on twitter today.....very few and far between..Just the usual suspects..shes crackin up...
When my girlfriends and I do a girls weekend we all share the same hotel room; 2 double beds, 2 women in each bed. No sex going on at all.
Here's some thoughts. Just bear with me.
1) Jon was working when the kids were little. Do you think it's possible that he didn't see the worst of the abuse? Abusers are experts at playing close to the line.
2) I think we have all discussed that Jon was an abused spouse. Yes, men can be abused just like women.
If the genders were reversed, knowing what we know about domestic violence, would we be so quick to find fault with a woman as we are with Jon? There are women who stay in abusive relationships and watch their children be abused for years before they do anything and even then it can be a slow process.
I agree that Jon should have fought for the kids from day 1 and the fact is he didn't. He can never change that. But he has seemed to work hard these past two years to become a better parent. I give him credit for that.
Good to know she's reading here. I just said her twitter was eerily silent and voila.
And sprinting, too!!!
And loving her kids like crazy!!!
And thanking her sheep for their support!!
All of this was mentioned somewhere on here today.
This is her F U of the evening. She wants people to know she's not going down without a fight.
I'm pretty sure she's actually been on here today, too.
She has crawled out from under her rock. Claims to have the kids home with her.
I wonder if she gave her old computer to Jon for the kids to use at his place and Jon figured out she had not wiped out her hard drive? Either that or Robert got his hands on the computer because he quotes emails.
Can't wait until tomorrow. Everyday there will be a gift. This story will build and build. She probably is consulting with Julie May this evening trying to line up talk shows and tabloids.
I think we should send Kate a wristband:
"Block Accusations of Child Abuse. Just Block Them"
BHappyLoveLaugh
@SiobhanR111 @SandieBellz @stxmom @BarbGilmer @deannatweeting Common sense lost. It's insane to think anyone would write it down they
abuse. 76
Shades of Richard Nixon. Rose Mary Woods and the missing 18 1/2 minutes on the Watergate tapes.
There's a new photo of Kate and comment by Robert on Gosslinbook. Check it out.
Some courts recognize something called Battered Women's Syndrome. Basically the woman is so entrenched and broken down by the abuse she can do absolutely nothing to fix it, not fight back or even protect her kids. Then when they finally snap and kill their spouse sometimes they can get off.
Don't fly off the handle, I'm not saying Jon had that. I'm just saying being mistreated does crazy things to people.
This is getting ridiculous.
My greatest hope is that this book tells the truth about both parents and does not give Jon all the excuses you guys are so happy to believe.
Is Kate a monster? YES!
Is Jon taking sencond place as the world's worst parent? Yes, again.
Bubbles....give it a rest...this is getting old...enough is enough....give it up already...stop trying to make jon the scape goat.....its boring...
People write down bad things they do all the time. Poor ignorant sheeple.
It almost seemed like Kate was trying to process what was going on by writing it down. Trying to deal with it in some way instead of paying for therapy. At least she recognized herself for what she was, she just didn't seem to be able to stop herself on her own. Writing is how Kate processes a lot of things, as bad of a writer as she is.
Realitytvkids.com (Administrator) said... 107
I think we should send Kate a wristband:
"Block Accusations of Child Abuse. Just Block Them"
______________________________________
You left out, "...and join the fun."
I can't see people's IPs Moi. Well I can see there are IPs here but I can't see who has what IP.
But I believe you are a separate person. What you say makes sense and is respectfully put. I don't think most people take issue with you. And you even use a name instead of anonymous :).
Silimom, speaking only for myself, I can say that I would absolutely be complaining about a situation like this if the genders were reversed. I'd rather not go into details but I had big issues with someone in my life due to them ignoring the abuse of their child by a step-parent. It infuriates me when people, male or female, don't protect their childen.
Sometimes you write bad things down to make yourself feel better.
When my girlfriends and I do a girls weekend we all share the same hotel room; 2 double beds, 2 women in each bed. No sex going on at all.
&&&
You're doing it so you can save on a hotel room, right? If you had endless money would you still share the same bed? Or would you get your own.
Kate can't even address the situation herself. She takes the easy way out and retweets one of Milo's tweets.
kateplusmy8
RT @MiloandJack: @Kateplusmy8 One more meeting here & I'll chk back in. People calm down..a trashy tabloid reporter&obsessed stalker does not the truth make!
She can't even find words to defend herself. She has to use others to do that.
Tweet, priceless!!!!!!
Admin, we are all in our 30's; we can well afford our own rooms. But it's just fun to share. That's what a girls weekend is all about.
It was a happy free day.......sounds like she was tortured out of her mind....you know how she over does her joy when something is wrong....i hope she has an extra bottle of wine waiting in her room....bet she cant wait to uncork that sucker...
What about Beth? As co-author of Multiple Blessings wouldn't she have had access to Kate's journal.
If this has already been floated as a possibility sorry for the repeat. I can't keep up tonight with all of the new names and anonymice.
KAT, what is your deal with me? There are numerous other posters saying the same thing I am but you keep aiming your rudeness at me.
Admin, this is at least the 2nd time today KAT has broken rule #3 with me. I'm sure she will counter that I have also broken that rule by "not letting this go" but there has been ongoing discussion about Jon's responsibility in this situation all day so my posts have been part of an interactive discussion.
Moi said, "This is getting ridiculous. My greatest hope is that this book tells the truth about both parents and does not give Jon all the excuses you guys are so happy to believe."
Admin said, "But I believe you are a separate person. What you say makes sense and is respectfully put."
___________________
I'm not so sure I would call the above post respectful, particularly since there are so darn many posters who are NOT willing to give Jon a pass, but who choose to reserve judgment because they don't know what he did behind the scenes to protect his children.
By the way, I couldn't agree more with Moi's statement that this is ridiculous. It certainly is -- the lack of reading comprehension becomes not only ridiculous, but obnoxiously humorous.
aggiemom09121416 said... 57
I don't know why all the fussing about Jon/Kate, etc, etc..
put the focus back on the kids. They had a voice today. LOUD AND CLEAR.
I am sure CPS will get involved again, let the system work.
We don't know what Jon did or didn't do. I bet we find out in time.
Let the system work.
Quit attacking each other. Emotions are running high today, and rightly so. Everyone take a deep breath and play nice in the sandbox. Please?
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I would like to 2nd what aggiemom has said. Emotions are high. Please, let's try to stick together for the sake of focusing on the facts that the children have been beaten, as so many of us suspected all along. NOT ALL OF US, for the love of mike, BUT MANY.
Perhaps SOME, not all but some for the love of mike, of our emotions today comes from the fact that we have sat by helpless and watched these precious babies, all 8 of them, be abused, neglected, mistreated, used and exploited for nearly 7 years. We have watched this unfold all these years in real time. And now we have confirmation. And we are still as helpless as we have been all this time. PERHAPS that is how SOME of us are feeling today, and we are angry. So angry that Kate isnt big enough to carry all our rage, so we are spreadin' it around.
Please, I wish we wouldnt fight amongst ourselves over what percentage of blame goes to Jon, how much to TLC, etc. For the dozens and dozens of people that we were speculating could be sources for Hoffman, that is exactly how many people have failed the children. Or maybe not. This is only day one of Hoffman's salvos; I am emotionally exhausted already but know that if I am going to continue to follow this drama and speak out for the kids, I had better get ready for what is to come.
*The opinions expressed above are strictly my own and no intent to implicate others should be inferred. If I have accidently used more than my allotment of words and drawn too much attention to myself, I submit my post and membership to Admin for removal, as she deems necessary.* For the love...
Marie said...
Admin, what is frustrating me is that every time someone says its abuse, Paula says, no, Pennsylvania Law says it isn't abuse. Yes, we know the LAW says it isn't abuse, but don't we all believe on here that it is abuse? I think so.
++++++++++++
Marie, that's what you don't seem to understand. Not all people believe that spanking is abuse. Some people personally believe it's ok to spank your children if it's controlled, not done in anger and to discipline and guide.
This is an area where some people need to agree to disagree and move on. There's no way you're going to convince people who believe in spanking that it is abuse and this blog is not the venue to do so anyway. Give it up. You disagree with certain people's opinions, they disagree with yours, but it's time to stop the back and forth and the repeated posts saying exactly the same thing.
I think we all know where you stand on this subject and we accept your position. Please accept the opinions of those who disagree with you on this subject because you're not getting anywhere and move on. Please
Maybe Kate's not saying anything because she can't. If she says RH's lying when he has solid evidence backing up his claims, she may be opening herself up to a lawsuit. So she just retweets. I wonder if Kate will do any press about this. She would have to be so careful about what she says and we all know that she's not great in interviews.
Sorry bubbles....but youre the only one who has a name...everyone else is anon. So its hard to answer THEM.....its as simple as that...
Paige C @Paige_Kate8fan
@Kateplusmy8 we're here for you, we obviously don't believe the stalker #te
Retweeted by Kate Gosselin
_______________
But but but with...the stalker got it from Kate's diary in her own words.
So either Kate writes lies about abusing her kids to sell books.
or
She's just a horribly mistaken for an abusive mother.
Who won't defend herself for her children's sake.
The situation with Kate making cookies while being outed as a child abuser reminds me of a TV move I saw long ago. It was about a little girl who was abused, and when investigators showed up to check things out, her mother was baking cookies. The investigators thought she couldn't possibly be a child abuser, she's a good mommy baking cookies! They looked the other way, dismissed everything, and the mother ended up beating her daughter to death. Does anyone else remember that movie? It had Susan Dey from The Partridge Family playing the mother, I think. The little girl's name was Mary Jane. But the irony of the situation, with Kate pretending to be the perfect innocent mom by making cookies, made me think of it.
I am sure CPS will get involved again, let the system work.
We don't know what Jon did or didn't do. I bet we find out in time.
Let the system work.
-----------------
AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
BWAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh, wait, you weren't being sarcastic?
Whoo-hoo! On the First Day of Gosselin Book post is up.
I don't think that the debate is spanking vs abuse. There is a difference between spanking with a flat hand on the most cushioned part of the body and hitting with an object. When people spank, they feel the force of impact on their hand and will moderate accordingly. Hitting with an object doesn't have that kind of feedback and it is much easier to go from a spanking to a beating. The fact that she carried an instrument of torture in plain sight is just chilling--whether used to threaten or as an instrument of torture. She is a monster.
Dwindle, 126 -- again, you have spoken for me. Thanks.
WHOA.....it's all laid out in detail on the cover!
miloandjack
@jenlygstevens80 @Kateplusmy8 Agreed! 2many educators, doctors, nurses, dentists, neighbors, friends & family around the G's! #KidRSafe :)
Yes, Milo, teachers and dentists are in the car with Kate if she uses the wooden spoon. Yes, Milo, the dentist and an array of nurses were with Kate when she allegedly yanked Collin by the hair and seriously wanted to injure her children. I'm sure a two-year-old would run to an educator and report abuse.
The stupidity of that particular sheeple is absolutely mind-boggling.
Re Jon and any abuse he actually committed (beyond his reaction or lack thereof concerning abuse by his wife and others), I have no idea if he spanked or hit the kids. A lot of me really just can't see him doing that, to any of them for any reason. I DO think that as time went on he let out his anger and frustration on his children. And that is abuse. Whether he still does it? Probably. Is it illegal? Nope.
BUBBLES! Get with the program! Anything negative said toward Jon will be swiftly met with deflection. Any wrong he did prior to the divorce is KATE'S fault, she made him do it. He was just reacting to the stress of being with her.
Ava (128)
Maybe Kate won't say anything because if she calls Hoffman a liar, he might produce proof of what he's saying. She wants her few remaining followers to stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to any of it. She's hoping that if she doesn't publicly acknowledge it, it will all blow over. She will bully him behind the scenes with nasty letters from her lawyer, but she can't afford to draw any additional attention to the book. She's hoping that nobody will notice it.
Aggiemom @57
Quit attacking each other. Emotions are running high today, and rightly so. Everyone take a deep breath and play nice in the sandbox. Please?
________________________________________________
Well said! I totally agree. I like to read differing opinions. We don't all have to agree, but let's respect each other.
Anonymous Marie is not a sheeple. Or at least I haven't noticed that being the case while reading her posts in the past. She has a differing opinion than the majority! Let's listen and agree to disagree, not condemn her for it. I like this blog better when everyone is respectful to each other!(rule #3)
I don't enjoy reading a blog where everyone has the same opinion--that's just not realistic. People begin to sound like robots or people who are afraid of "rocking the boat."
This is a heart wrenching situation with innocent children involved. IMO each person involved in this mess must accept some responsibility (Jon, too. And I like Jon, but come on). I've said enough for tonight. I hope tomorrow brings a better day for all. In the meantime, I will be thinking of the precious Gosselin children.
Sheesh, I feel like my head has just taken a spin in a commercial washer. What is happening here?
I think A, you think B. Fine. After expressing our opinions is it necessary to keep
at it until everyone agrees? That is what it sounds like. It left the realm of discussion some time ago and is starting to look like a power play.
For those who disagree with me: Great. It's OK with me. It's also OK if you think Jon is a dweeb or is an irresponsible parent. I don't happen to think he is. We've had our say. Now, how 'bout those Cubs?
The fact that she carried an instrument of torture in plain sight is just chilling--whether used to threaten or as an instrument of torture. She is a monster.
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Absolutely, Nurse. Absolutely. Thinking about that woman picking a two-year-old up by the hair and hitting a child with a spoon just brings tears to my eyes. I can't imagine how any mother could do that. My gosh, to grab a child and whack him with a spoon and then have him look at you with those sweet little eyes, like "mommy, what did I do?" and him not being able to actually verbalize it or comprehend it, just breaks my heart.
The die-hard, fanatical sheeple are taking the stance that there couldn't be abuse because there are too many people in the kids' lives who would have seen the results (i.e., teachers, doctors, dentists, etc.)
The little kids didn't have teachers until they were five, correct? And did the doctors, dentists, etc., see the kids every day/week/month?
Were these individuals there when she pinched, pulled hair, used The Spanker?
No one is saying this abuse is currently taking place, sheeple. But in Kate's own written words (apparently) it did happen when they were younger.
*The opinions expressed above are strictly my own and no intent to implicate others should be inferred. If I have accidently used more than my allotment of words and drawn too much attention to myself, I submit my post and membership to Admin for removal, as she deems necessary.* For the love...
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Dwindle. you are HILARIOUS. you provide a much needed comic relief at just the right time!!
Dwindle and I are going on vacay with Dmasy.
I don't know where we are going, what we will do when we get there, but it is going to be awesome!
:)
(no, I haven't lost *all* of my mind, but there has been some secret decoding going on. super duper secret.)
lololol
I've just seen the book cover and the list of contents on Mr. Hoffman's website. Can't wait to read it.
bm
wayward said... 76
BHappyLoveLaugh
@SiobhanR111 @SandieBellz @stxmom @BarbGilmer @deannatweeting Common sense lost. It's insane to think anyone would write it down they abuse.
**********************************
Now they're getting it!!!!! It IS indeed insane to document how you abuse your kids! A person who would do that must be mentally unstable.
Your Honor, I rest my case.
===========================
She has to ORGANIZE it you know!!!!!
Seriously though, I think perhaps her justification was to later sort through it, for use in a book, about how overwhelmed she was/is, how put upon, how horrible her life is, and yes how those dang kids ruined her life. Look at what came out in "I just cant stop being annoyed by you" or whatever she called it. I think she was planning on sypmathy and tea and gift cards and media tours when she parsed out how she just #sobusyandexhausted that she had no other outlet but to beat her babies.
A truly psychopathic narcissist, that beating, humiliating, pinching, hair pulling, screaming and name calling babies and toddlers should win HER attention and sympathy.
Just MY opinion of course.
Robert's book looks like the cover of a tabloid. Can we assume that whatever is inside is just as unprofessional?
New post on Radar Online.
laurajean
Besides the chapter on Daddy's Little Girl, the only thing missing in Hoffman's book is her relationship or lack of relationship with her family. I hope it is covered in the Daddy chapter.
I hope tomorrow he tells us if this book will be in hardcover form for us to buy at bookstores.
Dmasy said...
I think I came to the realization that many of us are here because we are survivors from less than ideal (or downright criminal) childhoods.
Dmasy, I guess I never realized it before, but yes you are right, I suppose many of us have overcome 'less than stellar' childhoods. I know that is what brought me here. I just wish that the worst possible secret hadn't been there to be revealed.
Okay, deep breath here, because I am going to go out on a limb and defend Jon. Two years ago I was in (email)contact with Jon's ex, Ellen. We were in contact about the kids and what could be done to help them. In the course of the emails I shared some info about my childhood. Below is a snippet of what was discussed and her response to me. The bolded part was her reply to me.
"I will tell you, on a personal note, that Jon's efforts will not go unnoticed by the kids. I was abused as a child and had to go through many years of therapy, as an adult, to move beyond my past - including the fact that my mother was aware of the abuse and did nothing to stop it! It was very hard to come to terms with the fact that my own mother put her needs first and mine second (the abuser was her 2nd husband). Even if Jon, ultimately, does not succeed the kids will know he tried to save their childhoods.
And as I have told Jon (via Twitter), love those kids unconditionally as much as you can. They need the hugs and the giggles and the down time and MOST of all they need to know what a joy they are for the people in their lives. Oh wow - thanks for sharing a piece of your past. but yea he even said he wants to be able to go to his kids someday and when they say Daddy why didnt u help us, hell say - i did EVERYTHING i could to.
So I have to believe that he has tried to do all he could, until it is proven otherwise.
let me just add that I am so overwhelmed by today's revelations. AND I am glad that I have all (well most) of you to process this with.
Please beware the drive-bys, I am sure the numbers of shit-stirrers will increase over the next few days and weeks.
Dwindle said... 147
''
Seriously though, I think perhaps her justification was to later sort through it, for use in a book, about how overwhelmed she was/is, how put upon, how horrible her life is, and yes how those dang kids ruined her life. Look at what came out in "I just cant stop being annoyed by you" or whatever she called it. I think she was planning on sypmathy and tea and gift cards and media tours when she parsed out how she just #sobusyandexhausted that she had no other outlet but to beat her babies.
A truly psychopathic narcissist, that beating, humiliating, pinching, hair pulling, screaming and name calling babies and toddlers should win HER attention and sympathy.
Just MY opinion of course.''
~~~~~~
Nope. NOT just your opinion. It's my opinion too!
I wonder if the book will explain Kate's two diamond necklaces. LOL
miloandjack
@jenlygstevens80 @Kateplusmy8 Agreed! 2many educators, doctors, nurses, dentists, neighbors, friends & family around the G's! #KidRSafe :)
--------
Wow. Delusional much, Milo? Think of the Sandusky abuses, and imagine that tweet had read as follows:
"Agreed! 2many educators, trainers, coaches, referees, friends and family around the boys! #BoysRSafe :)"
Scary, huh??? And yet...we know the truth about Sandusky...even with all those people around - some who even admitted SEEING the abuse - they said/did nothing.
Wow. Delusional much, Milo? Think of the Sandusky abuses, and imagine that tweet had read as follows:
"Agreed! 2many educators, trainers, coaches, referees, friends and family around the boys! #BoysRSafe :)"
Scary, huh??? And yet...we know the truth about Sandusky...even with all those people around - some who even admitted SEEING the abuse - they said/did nothing.
&&&&
Excellent point. It's scary how dense some people are even after that huge scandal.
Yeah, if a kid is abused, it's always taken care of quickly and efficiently!
What world do these people live in? We only wish it were like that.
Kate's down to 3 fans...a teenager and two women (paige, milo and firedup).
let's see how many she has after they read the book. (they can read, can't they?)
Gosselinbook says book coming this weekend! It shows all the chapters, cover of book, and a NOT so nice pic of Kate...................
How does one find the book?
aggiemom09121416 said... 145
*The opinions expressed above are strictly my own and no intent to implicate others should be inferred. If I have accidently used more than my allotment of words and drawn too much attention to myself, I submit my post and membership to Admin for removal, as she deems necessary.* For the love...
-------
Dwindle. you are HILARIOUS. you provide a much needed comic relief at just the right time!!
Dwindle and I are going on vacay with Dmasy.
I don't know where we are going, what we will do when we get there, but it is going to be awesome!
:)
(no, I haven't lost *all* of my mind, but there has been some secret decoding going on. super duper secret.)
lololol
*********************
OK, I am packing, but I get my own dang bed. That's a deal breaker.
on another note, I am dismayed by the posts on ROL "Oh well, what's a little spanking" "You try living with 8 brats screaming in the house" "More people should spank their kids and they wont grow up to be Kardashians"
They dont get it, they just dont get it. I am shocked.
And actually to piggy back on that, the Sandusky problems were reported, talked about, reported again, talked about again, emailed about again, and little to nothing was done.
Authorities WERE involved, and did next to nothing. It's not true that that was never reported to authorities because nothing happened.
The next installment is up for the evening at Gosselinbook.....it has all the chapters listed! Book will be available this weekend.
Bearswife - 151
Thank you for sharing that.
I'm local and I know that Jon has a lot more supporters than he does "haters." I think he acted like a jerk after the divorce and also had a few other missteps along the way. But my opinion of him went way up when he admitted he had made mistakes and was trying to be a better man and father. And no one can fake the photos and footage of those kids running to greet him. I've always thought they look much happier with him.
Firedup and Milo are one and the same.
Aggiemom, I think fired up and Milo are the SAME person. She posts under both names, just in different places. You will have to re-do the math!
PatK said... 144
The die-hard, fanatical sheeple are taking the stance that there couldn't be abuse because there are too many people in the kids' lives who would have seen the results (i.e., teachers, doctors, dentists, etc.)
The little kids didn't have teachers until they were five, correct? And did the doctors, dentists, etc., see the kids every day/week/month?
Were these individuals there when she pinched, pulled hair, used The Spanker?
No one is saying this abuse is currently taking place, sheeple. But in Kate's own written words (apparently) it did happen when they were younger.
============================================
My mother was very adept at hiding the abuse. If I had marks on my behind, legs, arms or face, she would soak me in a tub or keep me home from school until they were no longer noticeable. Needless to say, I missed a great deal of school. I was furious with my Dad for years because he knew what was taking place and he did nothing to stop her.
Layla said... 140
Ava (128)
Maybe Kate won't say anything because if she calls Hoffman a liar, he might produce proof of what he's saying. She wants her few remaining followers to stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to any of it. She's hoping that if she doesn't publicly acknowledge it, it will all blow over. She will bully him behind the scenes with nasty letters from her lawyer, but she can't afford to draw any additional attention to the book. She's hoping that nobody will notice it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Grow a Boyfriend might shrivel back up if he hears about this and DANG IT ALL he was just about to sign for Kate's dating show!
Dwindle!
OK, I am packing, but I get my own dang bed. That's a deal breaker.
-----------
that's two laptops you owe me. IN ONE DAY!!!
:)
omg, you make me laugh so dang hard. you did tell dmasy she's paying for the trip, didn't you?? I've already made us matching necklaces! we can share clothes, though, right??
BLOG ALERT!!
We don't need to read the book now. According to Milo it's just 'meanderin assumptions'.
Also 'facts are not documented proof'.
Oh my.
Thank you, Milo! You've just saved me some money!!
milo and firedup are the same person? well that's stupid, she tweeted her tonight using both names? uh...hmm...
hmm...that's just stupid.
dmasy, just 'cuz you corrected me doesn't me I don't get to go now! I need a vacay!
Bearswife, you were brave to share. Thank you.
Many women have been brave here today.
I think physical abuse (masquerading as discipline) is abhorrent. Kate should re-think her bully comments. We suspected and now there seems to be proof provided by Kate herself.
I measure the emotional abuse to be equally as scarring. We actually saw plenty of what I consider to be mean, cruel, insensitive emotional torture. She is tyrant. She will use any technique to achieve submission.
She is outed now. Hopefully...God willing, this is the beginning of help for her and for the children.
The next few days are going to be brutal on this blog as I'm sure the anons and drivebys will continue to increase.
Aggiemom - any room for one more on that road trip? I'll bring my own sleeping bag so we don't have to share a bed. I don't have any rumspringa but I make a mean bloody mary.
No Robert fan here said... 148
I think you just might be onto something here.
Yes, you are right, I just know know it
Kate has no excuses.From day 1,she had people in the house answering her every beck-and-call. When Jon got home from work,Kate would tag out and Jon did everything for the rest of the night (besides cook dinner).There has always been someone there to help Kate.
After the show came,Kate had tons of help.The crew,nannies,sitters,bodyguard and paid friends.While her fame being what it was...she could have turned to many outlets available to her to get help on the down-low.She never asked for personal help because she believes it was never her who needed the help.
So if she ever starts a press tour about whaooos me.I hope who ever she's sitting in front of calls her out on all her bullshit once and for all.
light at the end of the tunnel
No Robert fan here said... 148
Robert's book looks like the cover of a tabloid. Can we assume that whatever is inside is just as unprofessional?
***************
Yes it does. He also doesn't appear to have used an editor, based on the TOC alone.
SeeSaw....well, of course!!! (we need to talk about your makeup-I think that color isn't right for your complexion)...
OK! it's a foursome! yea!
you think you can tolerate dwindle? she thinks she's the boss just 'cuz she masterminds stuff.lol
I think that everyone's emotions are on full tilt here because even though many people have suspected that the kids have been tormented by their mother, to actually see it in her own words has been shocking. This is compounded by those who are accusatory in their beliefs that many absolve Jon or any wrong-doing, which really isn't the case. It's a double-whammy, and is very frustrating trying to point out, over and over again, that nobody knows Jon's part in any of this.
Therefore, the disagreeing and the snarking has taken a nasty turn on this blog, especially with so many posting under "anonymous" that it becomes confusing knowing who is saying what. Emotions run high when trying to deal with the issue (and legal aspects) of abuse, plus the wandering sheeple who have proven themselves to use deflection as their defense of Kate and finger-pointing at Jon to be the culprit in all of this.
Of course, some really good shots of Rumspringa may be in order tonight.
No lies..I hears ya
My Aunt on her deathbed cknfessed to me she rdgretted she didnt do more tk get us away.sevenies then I was twelve..
forty-four when she died..cancer..but that last lucjd day she had...her apology.
means more tl me than any can know
she knew
her hands were tjed
but she KNEW
she gave me peace tbat day
hope I gave her so
e
Count Me as a Non-Fan of Robert Too said... 174
No Robert fan here said... 148
Robert's book looks like the cover of a tabloid. Can we assume that whatever is inside is just as unprofessional?
***************
Yes it does. He also doesn't appear to have used an editor, based on the TOC alone.
=====
I think you're just making meanderin assumptions.
Have you see a copy of the book or are you going by his blog? Is Robert's editor supposed to proof his blog too?
DisgustedwithJonandKate said... 120
I am a long time reader first time poster. Not to defend Kate in ANY way but does anyone remember the episode where the family went to either the Ronald McDonald house or Jon and Kate's first apartment? I believe it was Mady who refused to eat her cereal and Kate told Jon. Jon took Mady (?) to a bedroom and we the audience could hear Mady crying. They then emerged from the bedroom and Jon told Kate "she would now eat her cereal". I can guarantee Jon "spanked"/"disciplined" Mady. BOTH Jon and Kate are disgusting imo.
---------------------------------------
I'd forgotten about that scene. Two other scenes come to mind that suggest that Jon was/is OK with physical discipline: One of the twins (sorry, can't recall which) flinching during the 'Thomas the Tank Engine' train ride when she thought Jon was angry at her, and another early scene where Jon goes to talk to the twins (who were in a little-seen 'homework room' on the main floor) with a spoon under his arm. I fall in the camp of considering Jon the lesser of two evils - not saying that he abused the kids to the extent that Kate appears to have, but certainly far from blameless.
As a side note: Admin, I think you might have accidentally forgotten to blur the faces of the two girl tups on one of the photos at the top of this thread. I know you've got your hands full right now!
Grow a Boyfriend might shrivel back up if he hears about this and DANG IT ALL he was just about to sign for Kate's dating show!
+++++++++++
She can send him to Milo. I'm sure Milo can inflate him to her preferred size, especially since Milo knows that he's been in Kate's bed.
I know Robert's book is forthcoming, but Is it going to flame-out even before it gets published? All kinds of claims are made in the tabloid press and often taken with a grain of salt. Robert has the goods, but is anyone paying attention?
What I would like to see to Joy Behar offer Kate the opportunity to explain these accusations on The View, with Sarah Palin as their special, surprise guest. Kate needs to be put in a very uncomfortable position, feeling the steely glare of those who are willing to call her to account!
Also 'facts are not documented proof'.
Oh my.
+++++++++++++++++
Right you are, Milo. Doesn't every parent carry a wooden spoon in the car just in case they want to stir up some cookie dough in there for the school bake sale?
Enjoy your road trip all. Hopefully I'll be able to focus on real life tomorrow all day. The sheeple will be here using different names. There is no way they can stay away. Just remember there are only 3 or 4 and they will try and make it look like more.
If I mail her my copy of the book do you think she will autograph it for me? Of course I will include return postage.
bm
Aggiemom
I'm sure I'll be fine with Dwindle as long as she doesn't bring her little dog, too.
Thanks for the makeup tip. I thought Deanna did a nice job, but I'm no expert.
Dwindle and Dmasy,
May I join you on this trip? I'll pay my own way, I promise not to sit on counters and I won't drop any crumbs on the floor.
I don't know how to make rumspringas but can make a mean iced tea!
I need a break!
I had a hunch something was coming when it was reported that she took the children to Toys R Us a few days ago, and let them pick out their own toys. Bribery to keep 'em quiet.
Weren't the spoon allegations reported, albeit in the Star, a few years ago? Why didn't the media pick up on it then? Is Radar Online a more credible tabloid source?
I hope that the children turn out ok, despite their 2 sucky parents.
Thanks to all who have shared personal experiences. I truly appreciate your take on things.
Tweet-le De Tweet-le DUMB said... 179
Have you see a copy of the book or are you going by his blog? Is Robert's editor supposed to proof his blog too?
*************
I'm going by the book's chapter titles which I am going to assume were cut and pasted from the book and not re-typed for the blog. If he re-typed them, he needs to brush up on technology.
Gosh anonymous PLEASE pick a name if anything so it's not so confusing.
I never said *I* believe Kate is a lesbian. I actually think she's more asexual than anything. The point being that it didn't come out of THIN AIR it was based on some pictures and dialogue.
Expand my horizons? No thanks, I don't want to sleep in bed with another grown woman. I think it's weird. I'm not alone. I know some people do it but whenever we talk about this issue, we get maybe one, two people who say I've done that. Hardly the majority.
As for alcoholism I really don't know on that either, the point is, again, the accusation didn't come out of thin air.
An accusation no one did anything to protect these children is on the contrary, out of thin air.
Hey katie r u going to bed with your wine tonight? I bet theres a tear in your beer tonight!!You deserve everything coming to you sweet cheeks.
Golly gee if only you had a friend to lean on for support. I hope karma has finally caught up to you.Guess you could snuggle with all your ill begotten gains.All that dirty money. Am I being too harsh?I did learn from you that when someone is naughty they deserve to be punished,and no punishment is to harsh at any age.
PISSED OFF HATER
"Robert's book looks like the cover of a tabloid. Can we assume that whatever is inside is just as unprofessional?"
8888888888888888
One is free to assume whatever one wants, but there's an old adage..."Never judge a book by its cover."
Coming out of lurkdom- I have been keeping up from my phone the past few days (read the 7 page lawsuit doc. in Denny's, while shoveling in my grilled Chilean Sea Bass- haa).... and also treading on GosselinBook.com. The Purse Boy foo-foo drink photo was posted, during my insomnia bout. I wondered too, if Robbie Hoff now lives in L.A., like me? It was late here when Rob hit again with Kiwi's... "Kitten or Canary?" pics. They are priceless! Kate looks super high, in the last wet hair photo. Stoned.
Dmasy- You are right on. Something was revealed here tonight, and I can be added to the C/A support group. I had never realized, spousal and paternal child abuse could be a factor, in my blogging at 15 Mins. There really aren't many words to describe it better than Dmasy has this evening.
As a child of 8, I turned my friends' (insanely devout) Mormon mother in-- for abusing her tiny children daily. This happened in what was voted the best Elementary School in Los Angeles County, at that time. Black eyes denied years prior, tossing kids down the stairs until their arms were broken? Right under their noses! Busted, by an irritated kid. The same principal and nurse were later fired, for pimping Day Care kids out to the known child molesters on our block-- for babysitting references.
I can smell bullshi# miles away... My abusive L.A. parents conditioned me for it.
Where is Ms. "How will this affect the kids" today? Heart breaking and all that.... Seems to me that the kids will be better off when the dust settles.
**I'm here now. Sorry I cannot spend 24/7 on this blog. You wait until the dust settles, then. However, now that the dust has been kicked up, how are the kids being affected RIGHT NOW?
JudyK said... 131
Have so much going on in my life that I've been really out of touch on this blog lately. Celebitchy has a huge expose on Kate today, and if that's already been mentioned, I apologize.
Going to start at the top and read all the comments now. And I cannot wait to read Hoffman's book.
====
JudyK! You have been missed. I just saw your post. Hope all is well with you. So nice to see your name again.
AuntieAnn, I suppose his cover looks like a tabloid magazine because Kate was a tabloid honey with constant articles in Star, People, Us Weekly, etc. She loved her white bikini tabloid cover spreads.
I think it completely suits Jon and Kate and their incessant need to share all their personal family business with the like magazines and gossipy talk show interviews!
Over in Kate's County, Kate actually said that mixing spoon was left in the BBB after a picnic
(or some outing) where they had stirred lemonade. Said they had forgotten to take it back into the house.
I can see Kate putting a sugary, wet mixing spoon into the side pocket of her vehicle. Right. That makes so much more sense than putting it with the rest of the picnic items in the basket.
One thing that bothers me, Why is the wooden spoon in the passenger side door of the van? If Kate was bringing it to hit the children with, wouldn't it be in the driver's side where it would be reachable?
Realitytvkids.com (Administrator) said... 190
Gosh anonymous PLEASE pick a name if anything so it's not so confusing.
I never said *I* believe Kate is a lesbian. I actually think she's more asexual than anything. The point being that it didn't come out of THIN AIR it was based on some pictures and dialogue.
Expand my horizons? No thanks, I don't want to sleep in bed with another grown woman. I think it's weird. I'm not alone. I know some people do it but whenever we talk about this issue, we get maybe one, two people who say I've done that. Hardly the majority.
As for alcoholism I really don't know on that either, the point is, again, the accusation didn't come out of thin air.
An accusation no one did anything to protect these children is on the contrary, out of thin air.
***********
LOL now you've gone from "mountains of evidence" to "not out of thin air." Surely an attorney such as yourself knows that the two are not one and the same.
An armchair psychologist could have a field day with the fact that you are weirded out by the idea of sharing a bed with a woman, but I'll refrain.
An armchair psychologist could have a field day with the fact that you are weirded out by the idea of sharing a bed with a woman, but I'll refrain.
&&&
I agree. It's just so darn weird for a grown woman who would prefer to be in bed with a man, not a woman.
An armchair psychologist could have a field day with Kate's arrested development friendships.
If I mail her my copy of the book do you think she will autograph it for me? Of course I will include return postage.
bm
~~
OMG I will send her mine too!
Hey you meaderin assumpters (Dwindle and her 3 sheep) come and pay me a visit on your road trip. I will make you a batch of Rumpringa Runners in my frozen drink concoction maker!
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